Re: Cinematronics BPROM alternatives

I would have to think that it was a power supply noise issue or
something analog vs a digital electronics issue.... sitting that long, I
can see the filter caps being dried out on it or something perhaps...

You don't store your old electronics in a hot dry shed do you? ;-)

jess
(who stores his old electronics in a hot dry attic.. in Wyoming no less)

litterbox99@mchsi.com wrote:
> I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I got out my data i/o 29b
> to read some proms. No joy, 40% of the time it wouldn't even get
> past it's own POST. If it did, I was lucky to get a few reads before
> I received 'lost contact with programmer'. I tried 3 different dos pc's
> and had the same results. The reads that I got, had different checksums
> on the same proms. Guess it can't be trusted, it worked the last time
> I used it 10 years ago or so ;-)
>
> I'm a bit rusty on this stuff, but since I'm doing a read only, can't
> I buy or build and adapter and read a SIG 82s123
> as a 2716 on my PB-10 to get my bin files ?
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "William Boucher"
> <boucher@mnsi.net>: --------------
>
> 
> Interesting. So long as the original 82s123 chips are in one
> piece and still working, I could read them and then convert their
> data for the BX288. While I was working on the replacements, I
> created some hardware and software tools for doing that. If the
> original chips are soldered into your board, I'm sure that I could
> remove them safely so long as they don't have pin-rot. If you
> don't feel safe desoldering the chips or using your programming
> equipment, I wouldn't mind doing it.
>
> As for the eproms, I have a couple of universal programmers and
> between the two of them, there's only a couple of eproms that they
> won't read without an adapter. Those would be the few with
> non-standard pin-out.
>
> If you can produce the bin files using your own equipment, that
> would save shipping the board or chips to me and save you the
> shipping charges and eliminate any risk of damage or loss during
> shipping.
>
> Feel free to pm me if you are interested in moving forward with this.
>
> William Boucher
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* litterbox99@mchsi.com <mailto:litterbox99@mchsi.com>
> *To:* vectorlist@vectorlist.org
> <mailto:vectorlist@vectorlist.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 24, 2009 8:48 PM
> *Subject:* Re: VECTOR: Cinematronics BPROM alternatives
>
> This is good news but a bit OT...
>
> I recently got into early 80's Bally slots (started out helping a
> buddy fix his) and they use 82s123's. EPROM & bipolar prom bin
> files were not documented or available like they are with our
> games.
> In order to preserve what I have, I will soon backup my slots
> roms.
>
> My slot uses 6 or so of these 82s123's and no bin files are
> available.
> I guess I will have to dust off my Data i/o 29b and remember
> how to
> use it. I would rather replace them with a product like yours
> as opposed
> to finding the originals and burn new ones.
>
> My only worry is that I don't want to zoik one of these proms
> while
> trying to read them.
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "William Boucher"
> <boucher@mnsi.net>: --------------
>
>
> > I finished building my little bprom replacement boards for
> the Cinematronics
> > CCPU.
> > See here:
> http://www.biltronix.com/CCPU_Custom_Chip_Replacements.html
> > Pictures now shown. I have lots of the PCBs so you can
> consider these
> > available.
> >
> > These small boards can replace bproms from other games as
> well. Bascially
> > anything in a DIP-16.
> >
> > William Boucher
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William Boucher"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:56 PM
> > Subject: VECTOR: Cinematronics BPROM alternatives
> >
> >
> > >I dunno about anyone else, but I'm rather sick of problems
> related to
> > >sourcing and programming the old bipolar PROM chips on game
> boards. Tons
> > >of games use BPROMs but they can be very hard to source,
> they can be
> > >expensive, and finding an old programmer box that supports
> them is even
> > >tougher. I used to have an older programmer that could
> handle 82Sxxx parts
> > >but that's it. I tried burning 6301, 74Sxxx, and such
> equivalents but they
> > >failed. My present programmer, a Xeltek SuperPro/Z cost me
> only $100 and
> > >it can program all sorts of EPROMs, flash SPLD, flash
> EEPROM, PAL, GAL, and
> > >stuff like that.
> > >
> > > I repair several Cine CCPU boards each year for people and
> the dam BPROMs
> > > are always what I fear the most will have to be replaced.
> Since there are
> > > five 74S288 (32 x 8) type BPROMs on the CCPU, I decided to
> start with
> > > that. I chose an Atmel SPLD that is really cheap ($1.50),
> available from
> > > almost any electronics distributor, is available in a
> small SOIC package,
> > > and is supported by my programmer (and almost every
> programmer on the
> > > market today). I wrote separate programs for all five
> BPROMs (located at
> > > E8, C14, D14, E14, J14) using Atmel WinCUPL which is free.
> It produced
> > > the JEDEC (*.jed) files needed to program the chips. The
> new chips are
> > > flash or EE-SPLD. They are as fast as the original BPROMs.
> I made a chip
> > > adapter socket today and tried the new chip in all five
> locations on a
> > > known good CCPU board and they all worked fine. I have
> designed a tiny
> > > new PCB that will convert the new chip pin-order to plug
> directly into the
> > > CCPU original locations.
> > >
> > > I have also designed a replacement for the larger BPROM
> (74S287 256 x 4)
> > > located at F14. For a first effort, it is based on a
> Xilinx XC9536. I
> > > couldn't get all of the data to fit into a cheaper SPLD
> but I'm open to
> > > suggestions if someone has a smaller cheaper chip in mind
> for the job. I
> > > still have to build a socket adapter to try it. For now,
> the design is
> > > done and the code is written in VHDL but I haven't tried
> it in a running
> > > board yet.
> > >
> > > Also, I don't care much for old windowed EPROMs either.
> They're okay and
> > > they've proven their worth, and some guys out there still
> sell NOS parts
> > > at good prices but it's not like you can just buy them
> anywhere you want
> > > to anymore. For the Cine CCPU (or Vectorbeam Space War), I
> decided to try
> > > something else just for fun. I know someone will say "seen
> it, old news"
> > > but just in case someone else might find it interesting
> I'm going to say
> > > it anyway. I purchased some new readily available flash
> parallel EEPROM
> > > chips that my programmer supports. The OnSemi CAT28C16A is
> a 2k x 8 flash
> > > memory with the same pinout as a standard UV 2716 except
> that on the new
> > > chip, pin 21 is "/WE" and not "Vpp". If the CCPU had wired
> pin 21 as tied
> > > high, the new chip would just plug in and work. As it is,
> pin 21 is tied
> > > low and so that would hold the new chip in "write" mode
> and we don't want
> > > that. The solution I used tonight just to try it out was
> to program the
> > > chip, bend the pin outward just a little and plug the chip
> into the socket
> > > with pin 21 hanging out over the side. The board ran fine.
> > >
> > > The advantages of the EEPROM are:
> > > -more widely available than UV 2716 chips
> > > -cost is very low
> > > -no UV needed to erase it, programmer does it instantly
> > > -has 100 year retention
> > > -has no window so it can't be corrupted by external light
> sources
> > > -can be instantly reprogrammed for other games
> > >
> > > There's no 4k x 8 equivalent to the 2732 chip that I am
> aware of, at least
> > > not in current distributor stocks. If there was, you could
> do this same
> > > type of replacement for games such as Armor Attack and
> Solar Quest.
> > > However, there is a 64k x 8 device that is in a 28-pin
> package. The cool
> > > thing about it is that it can be plugged into the original
> socket with 4
> > > pins at one end hanging out and it has everything needed
> except power.
> > > One tiny wire jumper fixes it. Or, you can install 28-pin
> sockets into
> > > the original 24pin sockets and add the jumper to that.
> Also, there's a
> > > couple of extra address pins to tie down but that's super
> simple. You can
> > > even program up to 8 games into the new chips and add
> switches to operate
> > > the extra address pins to create a multi-game CCPU. That
> doesn't address
> > > the obvious control panel wiring differences or the audio
> issues, but
> > > still. You can make a general CCPU that can be used on the
> bench to test
> > > several different games at the flip of a DIP switch or
> two. This has been
> > > done before and is in fact old news but to my knowledge
> the chips
> > > suggested were older UV parts. I'm suggesting to use the
> newer flash
> > > CAT28C64 type as a superior replacement device. Designing
> a CPLD to
> > > reroute the control panel lines would also be easy but I
> like Zonn's more
> > > practical approach of redefining the input lines within
> the game source
> > > code such that all the inputs for all the games match and
> then you could
> > > build a universal control panel.
> > >
> > > Working with the SPLD and CPLD parts to replace old custom
> logic gets me a
> > > little pumped to dive in and start collecting whole
> sections into CPLDs.
> > > There's been lots of talk about possible single-chip CCPU
> boards emerging
> > > in the near future and that would be exciting. I'm very
> new to such
> > > devices so I expect that a project that big is beyond me
> for the moment,
> > > but I can see how more experienced designers can really
> get into this
> > > stuff and pull it off. I might not be able to make a
> single-chip clone
> > > board on my first try, but I bet I could get it under 15,
> maybe 10.
> > >
> > > My plan presently is to get a couple hundred of the little
> 32x8 BPROM
> > > converter PCB's made so if anyone is interested in them,
> let me know. I
> > > may work something out for the 256x8 some time soon after
> that.
> > >
> > >
> > > William Boucher
> > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> > > http://www.vectorlist.org
> > > ** Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to
> > > chris@westnet.com
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > ** Unsubscribe, subscribe, or view the archives at
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> > ** Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to
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>

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Received on Mon Oct 26 00:20:25 2009