Re: Assistance with Star Wars w/Clay's ESB Kit --- SW novram clobber?

Altan,

Thanks. I didn't know that your version of the kit already used two 2212's. It sounds as if ESB is able to see both 2212's at the same time, while when SW is selected, the logic is allowing it to see only one. You could troubleshoot this by scoping the chip select on both 2212's to see if they are operating at full voltage swing, and operating at opposite logic levels from one another. Presumably, you'll find that when ESB is enabled, it's actually writing to both 2212's because both are selected. If there's a fault on the board, you might very well see a voltage level on the CS that isn't quite a valid high or low, and this would cause the chip to behave erratically.

If you don't have a scope, then you could socket the 2212's if not already, and isolate the chip selects for each, then physically drive them high or low yourself, to convince yourself that everything works as it should when you force the signals to the correct levels. If that solves the problem, then you can look at finding out why the chip select signals are not being driven properly.

Joel

On Feb 21, 2011, at 8:14 PM, Altan (GAPAS) wrote:

>
> Hi Joel. Thanks for the response.
>
> I don't believe I provided enough background... I'm assuming everyone has the same info as I do, which is a bad assumption.
>
> The Clay kit I have (which I think is 3.91) supports 2 novram (2212) chips. When the SW wasn't saving anything, ESB was. Then I replaced just one of the 2212s (which I'd like to get confirmation was the SW one) and ended up with both SW and ESB storing settings. The problem is when I switch between ESB and SW (even powered off), SW drops the settings. Even when SW drops the settings, the ESB side keeps its settings.
>
> I know... strange.
>
> ... Altan
>
> On Feb 21, 2011, at 7:47 PM, Joel Rosenzweig wrote:
>
>> My memory is that you would need 2 Novrams to make this work the way you want. Each game has it's own incompatible format for data in the novram which it wipes out at startup when you load the other game. If you had a dedicated novram for each, this problem would not happen.
>>
>> You could make this mod yourself if you want to make use of two Novrams.
>>
>> I had the original version of Clays kit and my SW to ESB switching did the same thing as yours.
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2011, at 7:07 PM, "Altan (GAPAS)" <pinball@aaarfamily.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (replying to both Mark and Jess)
>>>
>>> Mark, funny you replied! You were the source of the 2212s I ordered. :)
>>>
>>> Jess, thanks for your reply. I'm happy to say that I don't think the replacement 2212 is my current problem. With the original 2212, Star Wars wasn't saving anything. With the replacement from Mark, it's saving just fine. The problem is that switching between ESB and SW (with the power off!) causes SW to drop settings.
>>>
>>> From some additional research I've done, it appears the 2212 you swap into Clay's board IS the SW 2212. This is the one closest to the white rectangle. Can anyone verify this?
>>>
>>> Anyone else have thoughts on this odd behavior?
>>>
>>> As it stands, losing settings when switching between ESB and SW is a small price to pay for the ESB addition. However, I'd like to get it working without this nuisance.
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>> ... Altan
>>> www.aaarpinball.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Mark Capps wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I have a new batch of nos X2212p/5's that are working fine if you need them.
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>> www.arcadechips.com
>>>>
>>>> On 2/20/2011 18:38, Jess Askey wrote:
>>>>> I don't have my schematics in front of me but I have an early version of Clay's kit where there is no NVRAM switching. In my setup each game clobbers the NVRAM settings and both are factory reset on powerup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clay did mention that he had some issues with certain 2212's that seemed to be incompatible. Here is the important part of the thread that Clay discusses the issues about using non Xicor 2212's..
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chris" <gougeman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1115578961.363114.202110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Clay, can you clarify what you mean by "very slim success" with MarkC's
>>>>>> X2212s? I received my ESB kit this past week (thanks!) and was going to
>>>>>> order some NOVRAMs from him to fill the empty spot, but if they have
>>>>>> issues...
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, (and I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever to MarkC or his parts--
>>>>> he's a good guy and he gets a lot of hard-to-find chips for really
>>>>> reasonable prices) I kinda think that the X2212's Mark has were not made by
>>>>> Xicor and are possibly/probably an X2212 "like" part that someone else put
>>>>> out there or remarked or whatever...
>>>>>
>>>>> A few reasons:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) they're not marked like Xicor marked their parts when they were in
>>>>> production
>>>>> 2) they're not marked like the "lifetime buy" parts Xicor did on their last
>>>>> production run (I bought direct from them a "lifetime" supply (so I
>>>>> thought!) when they EOL'd the X22C12 and Mark's are not like the ones I had)
>>>>> 3) they're pretty unreliable running on the SW/ESB multigame (probably 90%
>>>>> fallout-- I quit using them)
>>>>> 4) some Ham radio guys (they're the ones I sold most of my original X2212's
>>>>> to) have problems with them too and now specify "real Xicor" chips instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no doubt that there's something about my daughtercard design that
>>>>> *makes* them not work well, but I also know that the "real" X22C12's I'd
>>>>> been using for the last ~9 years functioned just fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I'd say to get Mark's parts, swap one onto a different board that
>>>>> doesn't mind the difference (like Food Fight or FireFox or maybe a
>>>>> non-multigamed Star Wars?) and put the (original) X2212 on the SW/ESB
>>>>> daughterboard instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Clay
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/20/2011 11:42 AM, Altan (GAPAS) wrote:
>>>>>> I'm lucky to have acquired a Star Wars with Clay's ESB kit. I believe the kit is v3.91 (but I should have written it down when I took the boardset out).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've dug through messages on vectorlist.org, RGVAC as well as KLOV forums but haven't found a solution to what I'm seeing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I got the game, I realized the Star Wars part was not storing settings. It would keep defaulting to the DIP switches. The ESB game was storing settings. I replaced a single 2212 on Clay's PCB. I picked the 2212 that the v3.x manual indicates should be swapped from the SW PCB to the Clay kit. I guessed that a swapped 2212 would have more used cycles than the one provided with the kit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm assuming this is the 2212 used for SW novram. Is that right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason I believe the above is because the Star Wars game now stores the settings. That's a good improvement. ESB also continues to store the settings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought everything was perfect until I realized that switching from ESB to Star Wars --- with the game turned off --- causes Star Wars to drop its settings. FWIW, since the games individually store their settings, this tends to indicate no voltage issues going to the 2212 part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard of some problems people occasionally have with the kit, but this one seems unique. Since I don't have a schematic or theory of operation for the mod, it's difficult to try and debug the issue. For example, if I find out that the 2212 I replaced is actually the ESB novram then things are acting very strange. I wonder if something is messed up where both games are using a single 2212?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I appreciate any assistance that is offered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... Altan
>>>>>> www.aaarpinball.com---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Mon Feb 21 20:45:00 2011