Re: Assistance with Star Wars w/Clay's ESB Kit --- SW novram clobber?

What rev is your board?

Your picture cuts off just before the board rev marking, but I believe we
found that it's dependant on the rev. IIRC, A has the cap populated, and B
doesn't, and I happened to see a rev D yesterday, that had both the cap and
R59 populated.

FWIW, just put the cap in and see if that fixes your problem.

Also replace C93, with a 10 or 20uF cap. (or whatever you have around the
house)

You may be thinking too much about what amounts to 29 cents in parts. You
have nothing to lose.

-Mark

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Altan (GAPAS) <pinball@aaarfamily.com>wrote:

>
> It's interesting mine doesn't have C94. It really looks like it was never
> there from the factory.
>
> Anybody good with electronics out there? :) Is it possible the lack of
> C94 removes the need for R59?
>
> Is R59 marked on the PCB? I've gone over mine several times and don't see
> where it should go. If I read the "update" correctly, would one need to
> cut a trace?
>
> Here is a pic of my SW PCB. I welcome any comments regarding the location
> of R59.
>
> http://www.aaarpinball.com/Miscellaneous/DSC_1314-low.jpg
>
> Thanks
>
> ... Altan
>
>
> On Feb 23, 2011, at 6:15 PM, Mark Shostak wrote:
>
> Yes, both of mine have C94. If yours doesn't, that could be an issue.
>
> Also, did you read this ESB upgrade note?
>
> "13. If your STAR WARS main PCB does not have R59 installed and the game
> does not retain high scores or statistics, insert a 10K ohm resistor in
> series between pin 10 of 1E, and at the intersection of R100, CR3, and C94"
> - TM-226 Page 7
>
> -Mark
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Altan (GAPAS) <pinball@aaarfamily.com>wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>> Also, for what it's worth, my Star Wars PCB doesn't have a cap at c94.
>> Looks like there never was one. Anyone have a cap there?
>>
>> Thanks again guys.
>>
>> ... Altan
>>
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Altan (GAPAS) wrote:
>>
>> Clay, Mark, Jess, Joel,
>>
>> You guys are great! I appreciate hearing thoughts from people that know
>> what they are talking about :)
>>
>> My immediate plan is to take the boardset out, remove BOTH 2212s and
>> install sockets. This will make it much easier to goof around with.
>>
>> While I have it out, I'm going to check what is connected to what. Is it
>> safe to assume matched pins on each 2212 should be tied together with the
>> exception of the chip select?
>>
>> Then I'll start looking into the suggested approaches. I will probably
>> start with the 2212 swap --- just because that's easiest. But the others
>> are great items to look into also.
>>
>> ... Altan
>>
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2011, at 1:50 PM, Clay Cowgill wrote:
>>
>> Worth noting that there is a checksum in the data written to the 2212.
>> If the checksum and data do not match, the NVRAM is wiped clean by the code
>> on the next startup. I'm still kinda liking the "more capacitance on
>> +5EAROM" idea for the time being. Of course there might have been a reason
>> why Atari had that value so low (like to prevent the NVRAM from trying to
>> power the rest of the board from +5EAROM back through the address/databus
>> pins or something).
>>
>> I guess you could always just double the value of C93 (for twice the load)
>> and be relatively safe (as opposed to 'too much').
>>
>> Another thought-- do you have *another* new 2212 to try using? Maybe the
>> one you have is just particularly finicky? Or also possible-- maybe your
>> C93 (or C94 mod) has significantly degraded and you're just on the bleeding
>> edge of "good enough"...
>>
>> Mark's idea about the C94 mod is a good one too.
>>
>> -Clay
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-vectorlist@vectorlist.org [mailto:
>> owner-vectorlist@vectorlist.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Shostak
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:42 AM
>> *To:* vectorlist@vectorlist.org
>> *Subject:* Re: VECTOR: Assistance with Star Wars w/Clay's ESB Kit --- SW
>> novram clobber?
>>
>> Or... Here's a completely different possibility:
>>
>> Have you tested or verified the presence of "anti-corruption capacitor"
>> (my words) C94?
>>
>> This cap "...maintains E2PROM data integrity..." "...during power-up or
>> power-down...", quoting Xircor.
>>
>> It would be interesting to get a measurement on this cap, as it could
>> potentially explain a lot of "flaky" NVRAM behavior in SW boards.
>>
>> HTH
>> -Mark
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Jess Askey <jess@askey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> So if switching to ESB during power off does it then the only things I
>>> can think of would be that SW is actually getting corrupted while ESB is
>>> writing to the NVRAM. So... try this...
>>>
>>> a. Do what Joel suggested first
>>>
>>> 1. put in SW mode... put up a high score.
>>> 2. Power Down.... remove the SW NVRAM (on Clay's PCB if I read that
>>> right)
>>> 3. Switch to ESB... turn on game
>>> 4. Put up an ESB high score
>>> 5. Power down... replace the SW NVRAM
>>> 6. Switch to SW (don't forget this or you will have to start over)
>>> 7. Bring up SW and data should be good still.
>>>
>>> So, with that, like Joel said on his check, you can see if it is chip
>>> specific then you can see if there is something funky in my process. If my
>>> process works and SW memory is still OK, then there must be something going
>>> on with the chip select between the two NVRAMs which is letting ESB write
>>> data to the SW NVRAM... when SW is powered back on and the data isn't
>>> checksumming correctly, it will restore it to DIP settings and overwrite it.
>>> If the memory in SW is still corrupt after this process, then it has
>>> something to do with the powerdown with the select switch being in different
>>> positions.
>>>
>>> ??
>>>
>>> jess
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/22/2011 8:22 AM, Joel Rosenzweig wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would be worth swapping the two 2212 chips between SW and ESB to see
>>>> if the failure moves with the chip or stays with the socket. If it moves
>>>> with the chip then that's one debug path. If it stays with the socket then
>>>> that's a different one.
>>>>
>>>> Joel
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:56 PM, "Altan (altan@aol.com)"<altan@aol.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, I think the reason this is hard to figure out is because the
>>>>> behavior is just plain screwy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I replaced the SW 2212 a couple days ago and it definitely started
>>>>> storing settings.
>>>>> For several days, it would power up with free play and my settings.
>>>>> About 4 hours ago, I got a high score (yeah! ... #3). I turned the
>>>>> game off.
>>>>> I just turned it back on and the settings were lost (as well as the
>>>>> high score). Boo!
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can most likely conclude from this that switching from ESB to SW
>>>>> isn't the root cause. Maybe I was just unlucky that the failure occurred at
>>>>> those times --- leading me to assume they were correlated.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's odd is that the novram test passes. FWIW, the novram test also
>>>>> passed with the original 2212.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does that tell us when the novram test passes? Anyone know what
>>>>> Atari actually did for the novram test? Did they write a pattern into the
>>>>> ram and then tell the chip to store it, then clear the pattern from ram and
>>>>> then ask the chip to restore it from novram? I'm wondering if knowing why
>>>>> the novram test passes might help explain what I'm seeing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again to everyone is hash chimed in --- or will do so :)
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Altan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:46 PM, Altan (GAPAS) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Joel, you have it correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SW saves fine.
>>>>>> ESB saves fine.
>>>>>> Switch from ESB to SW (with power off) and SW loses settings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... Altan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:40 PM, Joel Rosenzweig wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the timing was wrong, wouldn't it fail to save the score in that
>>>>>>> 2212 all the time? I thought he said that SW saved the scores now, but,
>>>>>>> when switching back from ESB, SW was re-initialized.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I'm misreading him again.. don't know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 21, 2011, at 11:33 PM, Jess Askey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did lots of fanagling with the NVRAM on my I,Robot when it had
>>>>>>>> trouble saving settings and indeed, Atari seemed to balance the /SAVE line
>>>>>>>> with the timing of the +5V NVRAM supply *just right* to make the NVRAM save
>>>>>>>> data right before power disappeared. Technically, if you doubled the load,
>>>>>>>> the power supply would drop in about half the time so putting a big cap in
>>>>>>>> parallel with C93 seems like the best bet... at least to eliminate that
>>>>>>>> possibility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/21/2011 8:42 PM, Clay Cowgill wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming this is the 2212 used for SW novram. Is that right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm 99% sure that's right. (Sorry, it's been a long time since I
>>>>>>>>> had to
>>>>>>>>> look at/think about that. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The idea was that you could take your existing Star Wars settings
>>>>>>>>> and high
>>>>>>>>> scores and move them over to the daughterboard without losing
>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only thing that comes to (my) mind at the moment is that maybe
>>>>>>>>> with two
>>>>>>>>> NOVRAMs sharing their connections (except for the chip select which
>>>>>>>>> is muxed
>>>>>>>>> by the game select switch) maybe the 'new' SW 2212 doesn't have
>>>>>>>>> enough time
>>>>>>>>> to store the SRAM copy of the memory to the NV portion of the chip
>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>> the EAROM power goes away.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For grins, you might try something like putting a big electrolytic
>>>>>>>>> cap
>>>>>>>>> across the "+5EAROM" power and ground pins of the 2212's on the
>>>>>>>>> daughterboard. (Like a 470-1000uF or something-- you could also
>>>>>>>>> put it in
>>>>>>>>> parallel with C93 on the SW board-- careful with the polarity.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Clay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P.S. My apologies to anyone contacting me in the last few months
>>>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>>> missed replying to you. We *just* finished getting Ground Kontrol
>>>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>>>> our permanent location after a huge three month remodel, so it'll
>>>>>>>>> be several
>>>>>>>>> weeks still before I get my head above water again. We were doing
>>>>>>>>> 120+ hour
>>>>>>>>> weeks there towards the end. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> chris@westnet.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Received on Thu Mar 3 12:13:05 2011